Oct 13, 2022
Rowan is joined by Connie Glynn, the author of very gay bookseries The Rosewood Chronicles. Get ready for some truly chaoticHot Takes about queer cinema - you've been warned 👀
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Production
- Hosts:RowanEllisandJazza John
- Editor:JuliaSchifini
- Executive Producer:Multitude
- Artwork:Jessica E.Boyd
About The Show
Queer Movie Podcast is a queer movie watch party hosted by RowanEllis and Jazza John. Join us as we research and rate our waythrough the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms toslashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to black & white classics,Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things gaaaaay on thesilver screen. New episodes every other Thursday.
Transcript
ROWAN: Justvery quickly before we get into the episode, I want to say a hugethank you to two of our patrons over on Patreon who joined therainbow parent level. Amazing. Thank you so much Jennifer and Toby.Clap, clap, clap. Amazing fireworks. Cheers. The crowd goes wild.If you too would like to be a Rainbow Parent, then head overto patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast.That's one of the perks over there. We also have other levelsincluding access to the Discord, a monthly movie watch-alongs,lists of our recommendations of various Queer Movies. So if thatsounds up your alley, check it out.
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ROWAN: Welcometo the Queer Movie Podcast celebrating the best and worst in LGBTQ+cinema one glorious genre at a time. I'm Rowan Ellis and this isHot Takes. In Hot takes episodes, I'm joined by a guest who comesready to go with three queer movie Hot Takes that they will need topersuade me off in three arguments or less. I am very excited tohave on the show my friend, Connie Glynn!
CONNIE: Hello. I hope you're all already because chaosis coming.
ROWAN: I'm very excited. Connie is known for being theauthor of the extremely gay books, The Rosewood Chronicles, whichdo not get enough gay street cred as I think theydeserve.
CONNIE: Theydon't, it's like nobody knows it's gay, and it could not be moregay.
ROWAN: Butthere are no heterosexuals in the series.
ROWAN: Youdidn't mean– okay.
CONNIE: Which Ididn't mean to do. I just didn't have time to slot themin.
ROWAN: Didn'thave time to find the time.
CONNIE: That'strue.
ROWAN: Theytake up so much time those heterosexuals. So yeah, we are going tobe going one by one through these Hot Takes. Do you have a specificorder for these Connie, that you would like to–
CONNIE: Yeah. Okay, so let's see. So some of these, Iwould say are a little spicier, and some I reckon–
ROWAN: Okay.
CONNIE: Everyone will agree with and it will take verylittle persuasion. But that one's also kind of boring. So let'sjust do that one first.
ROWAN: Okay, we'll get that one out of theway.
CONNIE: Yeah.
ROWAN: Give methe hot take.
CONNIE: Honestly, I don't believe even as I'mabout to tell you, this Hot Take, that this hasn't already come up.Like I think I'm just going to be preaching with the choir. Andthat is Simon from, Love, Simon. His friends are actually theworst.
ROWAN:Okay, I'm–Pretend you; we aren't on a Zoom call, and you can't seemy face here. I gave nothing away. I was still trapped. Wow, okay,what an interesting hot take, would you like to take me throughyour reasoning? Because I don't already have an opinion aboutthis.
CONNIE: I'msure this is totally out of the blue and nobody's ever thought ofthis before. Okay, so let's begin. We live in a world where forsome people, coming out is really dangerous, and can literally ruintheir lives. And we have this boy Simon, who is this very clean-cutAmerican kid. He's very primed for the possibility that coming outcould ruin his life. And then we have this guy who is literallyblackmailing him. He's like, if you don't let me hook up with yourfriend, Abby, then I'm going to out you to the whole school. I'mgonna, like, share these emails about you to the whole school. Thatis an extremely dangerous position for a young queer kid to be in.That, like, come on, like not to get really deep. I don't know howdeep you go on these podcasts. But people literally die over thesethings. And it all comes out later on that he was messing with hisfriends' lives, but like barely. Barely. Barely.
ROWAN: Just alittle nudge.
CONNIE: Alittle nudge.
ROWAN: Alittle, little, tiny little.
CONNIE: He waslike helping this guy, trying and get with Abby like giving himinfo on what she was into. And they're really mad at him. They'resuper mad at him, even though they know that he was beingblackmailed, that he was literally being blackmailed. And this girlAbby, he even came out to her earlier on. And she has this wholemoment where she's like, I'm so glad you came up to me. I know whata big deal this is.
ROWAN: Soshe/her.
CONNIE: Doyou.
ROWAN: Do you,Abby.
CONNIE: Thisgirl, Leah has the audacity to be upset because she had a crush onhim. And it's like, oh my god, do you know how much this hurts me?Specifically that you're gay? It's really a story, really. We'reall just; we're just living at it. Here's Leah's story.I hate it.And you know what, I expected when I saw this film, I was waitingfor the moment when his friends realized, like, oh, we have toactually be there for Simon, like he's just been publicly outed,and he has no friends. His life could be crumbling around him. Ourfriend should be put on suicide watch right now. This is a reallyprecarious situation for a teenager to be in. But no, no, the bighappy ending is that Simon realizes how cruel he has been to hisfriends and he apologizes and they accept his apology. Fuck thisfilm, fuck you, fuck everything about it.
ROWAN: So yeah,the spoiler that my face gave away was something that I'm prettysure everyone who has listened to this podcast, even If theyhaven't listened to the Love, Simon episode that we did do, we'llknow is that, I don't like Love,Simon. Made a whole video about iton YouTube. That was like my longest video at that point that Idone, because I was just possessed by the need to express how muchI agree with this Hot Take essentially, as like a big part of thereasoning why? Yes, agreed. I mean, you don't even have to go onany further. Although please do if you have more ranting pointsabout this movie, and specifically this weirdfriendship.
CONNIE: I dohave more ranting points.
ROWAN: Okay,you know what–
CONNIE: You better believe I have more rantingpoint.
ROWAN: I camein. I came in too soon with the agreement. Pretend like I stillneed convincing. Maybe there's someone out there that still does gofor it.
CONNIE: So thishas nothing to do with Simon's friends being evil. This is juststupid. This is just all round, like what the hell, come onbisexual people exist. The whole misunderstanding is that he thinksthat cool guy called Blue - he’s been exchanging emails with who isthe other gay guy at school who is not out. But he sees him kissinga girl. It's then like a big, oh, what? But actually, it's him. Andkissing a girl was a misunderstanding. And it's like Simon, babe,bisexual people exist.
ROWAN: They arearound.
CONNIE: You didnot need to jump to that conclusion. And I kind of hoped that wewould really have that moment where we'd be like, hey, you can'talways assume someone's sexuality, like straight passing does notmean that someone is not LGBT. But we don't even; we don't evenattempt to discuss them.
ROWAN: Do youknow the wildest thing is? There's a sequel to the book, at least.Called Leah on the offbeat. Leah's bisexual sounds like athing.
CONNIE: Oh,come on. Come on, that's great news, I'm so happy. But like, what–what the? I'm going to have a sip of my drink.
ROWAN: Just alittle, little sip.
CONNIE: Her story, her being so upset about Simon notbeing into her, and that being like this cruel thing. And she'sreally upset that he didn't come up to her first. And that'sactually a great plot point. I'm all for that as a plot point.Because that could be a moment of growth for this character Leah,and we could see that on the screen. Like other people that haveselfish thoughts about other people's coming out journeys, couldlearn like, oh, I'm not the center of this, and my feelings areactually kind of irrelevant.
ROWAN: Yeah.
CONNIE: We don't do that. We just don't do that.Because like, she doesn't have to be evil. I don't have to bepissed off at this character, Leah, I could see her growth, but Idon't get to see her growth. So instead, I just do not likeher.
ROWAN: Iagree that there's definitely– there was no reciprocity, either. Itdidn't even feel like there was a– I'm sorry, and I'm also sorry,it was very much your right on Simon to be like, I am in the wrong.Truly, I've just been so awful this entire time. If Simon was a badperson, fundamentally, there are so many other things he could havedone to make the blackmail, like the blackmail of wanting to getwith his friend. There's a lot of really bad things he could havedone to make that happen. And instead, he's just like, okay, well,I guess what if I just gave him a chance with you? Like, what if Ijust gave him some info?
CONNIE: Thething that they're really mad at him for, is that he told him to gohard or go home. So the guy does, like a public proposal ofromantic intent. And this is humiliating for Abby, almost ashumiliating as getting publicly outed. It's like, you should alwaysunderstand how horrible that feels. And you could both apologize toeach other if you insist on having Simon apologize. But it's soweird the way it ends. And it is so much about his apology and himhaving to realize that he's hurt people. And there's never a momentwhen the friends are held accountable for theirbehavior.
ROWAN: Whywould they be. Haha.
CONNIE: Youknow what I want? I want you to know, The Mean Girls Musical doesthat revenge party, what I want is an ultimate ending, which is awhole other movie, where this happens, and Simon's like, holy shit,my friends are the worst people on planet earth. And he makesfriends with like two other queer people at school, and theyorchestrate some kind of horrifying revenge.
ROWAN:Here's the thing though Connie, that would involve there being morethan one queer person in a movie who gets any kind of like,presence or growth like there isn't other queer character. Butthere's them, like him and Simon don't really interact other thanin these very few situations, which is like, firstly, when Simon'slike, basically he brings it on himself because he's so effeminate.And then Simon being like, humiliated in the lunch hall alongsidethis other queer student.
CONNIE: The oneother yeah.
ROWAN: Yeah,and then they like sitting outside the office and Simon not reallyhaving the conversation that really like; we actually want him tohave this student, which is like, hey, sorry for the fact that Idid nothing to support you this entire time. I was going through myown shit, to which the other student will probably be like, fairenough. Like it is very tough and then Simon will be like, but alsoI feel like maybe I had my own internalized issues because Simonalso has this weird bit, where he talks about; he has that fantasydance sequence, and then he cuts it short. And it's like, maybe Iwouldn't be that gay. Eww like gross. And you're like Simon, growthe fuck up.
CONNIE: Oh,wow.
ROWAN: There'slike a lot of internalized homophobia. But they kind of ignore thatat the end. Like, that's not really part of the issue at all. It'smainly how much he needs to apologize to his straight friends. AndI'm like, there were so many other interesting things going onwithin Simon's brain that could have been interesting to explore,like internalized homophobia. Because even though he is this sortof middle-class white, gay guy, who seems to have reasonablysupportive parents, it's still scary. And there's still some stuffthat you need to unpack within yourself. If you live in a worldwhere homophobia exists, that like that can be internalized, evenif it seems like you have a really easy coming out option. But no,they just– they just didn't. They simply did not.
CONNIE: So youagree?
ROWAN: I'mpersuaded. This first Hot Take, I know that you said that youstarted on easy mode anyway.
CONNIE: Yeah.
ROWAN: But Iagree. And I do, I mean, if anyone out there is like, actually, Idisagree. Here is a logical counterargument to Connie. Feel free totweet the podcast about it because I'd be fascinated to see someonebe wrong in our notifications.
CONNIE: Yeah.Also, if you do want to defend Love, Simon, you have to like cometo my house and discuss it with me in person.
ROWAN: You haveto look Connie dead in the eyes.
CONNIE: Right.
ROWAN: Andprove your point–
CONNIE: In myeyes.
ROWAN: Well,this is also fun, because I do; like me and Jazza have talked aboutthis movie, and Jazza does agree with me. But also Jazza had a verypersonally invested experience within this movie. And we havetalked about some podcasts before, but I would feel remiss if Ididn't remind everyone that both of us saw this movie together. Meand Jazza saw this movie together for the first time at the BFI inLondon. And Jazza cried so hard that I essentially had to bury himin his jacket and his coat.
CONNIE: Wait.Tears of joy?
ROWAN: No tearsof– I don't even; I think it was during one of the coming outscenes. But like the scene ended and Jazza was still sobbing and soin an attempt for him not to die of embarrassment. We had to stiflehis sobs with his jacket.
CONNIE: Wow.
ROWAN: It waslike onto a fun scene and everyone else was laughing and Jazza wasjust like, breathing heavily underneath his coat beside me in theBFI and the cell phone.
CONNIE: I thinkthe only film that's ever happened to me with was Coco.
ROWAN: I mean,that's –
CONNIE: Ithought I was gonna have to call an ambulance. I was like, I can'tbreathe from crying so much.
ROWAN: Somebodyget me an ambulance. I'm in pain. This grandma she's singing-They're crying that much.
CONNIE: Oh, no,she wasn't. She was dead.
ROWAN: Sorry,spoiler for Coco.
CONNIE: That'swhy I am crying.
ROWAN: Julia,feel free to cut the spoilers for Coco. Because I believe peopleshould see that movie unhindered by Connie's thoughtless spoilerson this podcast.
CONNIE: Sorry.Sorry. Sorry.
ROWAN: Amazing.Okay, well, you persuaded me at point number one. It wasn't adifficult challenge for you, but you did do it. But I would, Iwould love–
CONNIE: Yeah.
ROWAN: In thatcase to go on to number two, to go on to the second.
CONNIE: Oh,don't worry. This one is Tumultuous!
ROWAN: Is itspicy? Spicy one. Tumultuous?!
CONNIE: I willsay.
ROWAN: Okay,that's a, that's an exciting word to hear.
CONNIE:Don't come in. Okay, so I didn't know how to write this down as aHot Take.
ROWAN: Okay.
CONNIE: It'slike three Hot Takes in a trench coat.
ROWAN:Okay.
CONNIE: I havetitled this Hot Take as, Queer Joy Has Gone Too Far.
ROWAN: Already.I'm fascinated. The storm is hitting me. I'm in the tornado.Continue.
CONNIE: Okay,so we have like a history, a deep terrible history of Queer codedevil characters.
ROWAN: Yes.
CONNIE: Andthen we never see that actually do anything explicitly gay. Wasever like a guy sucking off another guy. I don't know what ratingthis podcast is by the way.
ROWAN: Well youcan– it's fine. We just– we swear on this podcast, we've talkedabout.
CONNIE: Everything.
ROWAN: Jazzais, Jazza is trying to convince me to do an episode where the thickas we go like by genre, so it's like Queer Horror, Queer Comedy. Hereally wants to do Queer Porn as one of them, so that'sthe–
CONNIE: Oh, Iwill be there.
ROWAN: You'll be the specialguests on that episode as well.
CONNIE: I'veactually never watched porn in my life.
ROWAN: Okay.
CONNIE: I'venever. I don't know what it is.
ROWAN: This is–it's actually really funny. I'm watching Connie right now and likePinocchio style, Connie's nose is growing to just extreme lengthsas in the background, just a load of fanfiction tabs start opening,frantically in the screen share.
CONNIE: Hey, Ididn't say I didn't read porn.
ROWAN: You knowwhat on a technicality, correct. Okay, so queer; so okay, we had alittle queer-coded villains who didn't suck dicks? Yeah.
CONNIE:We have a history of queer-coded villains who didn't suck dicks.Thank you or they didn't eat pussy, whatever you want to go with.Or both, you know? So we've had what I believe to be–
ROWAN: Aresponse.
CONNIE: Theresponse to this has been that you mustn't do it. That you can'thave these queer code evil characters. I would argue that we shouldactually lean into the queer code of evil character. And I wouldlike them to be explicitly gay, and also evil. And instead, therecent trend is these like, kind of floofy queer joy, which like,has its place, and I'm totally for it. And a lot of it is verylovely. But it's not sexy, and it's not filled with tension. Andit's not really giving the people what they want. Like, where is myQueer Daymond Salvator? Where is my Queer Spike from Buffy? Do yousee what I mean?
ROWAN:You know what? I completely see what you mean. I feel like theequivalence actually allow them to be queer is a great one. And Ithink that what's so weird about this one, is because theaforementioned idea of like, you have one queer character insomething, and then a load of straight people, it's like that worryof, I guess from filmmakers, or writers like, oh God, if we makethe one queer person, a villain, that's like really bad becauseit's meant to be saying something. Here's your solution. Just makeeveryone else gay as well.
CONNIE: Uh huh. And then you can lean into it,you can have your evil character, because let's be real, all of uswho grew up reading teen fiction, we like it when the love interestis like, kind of spicy, you know, a little bit of a bad kid. And wejust don't get that in queer stories in cinema and books I wouldeven say, and I do always think that one of the problems is that alot of for lesbians specifically. Lesbians in queer Joy, TV showsand movies, they're usually in a relationship already. Or it's justabout like the two lesbians that there are. So you never get thiskind of sexual tension. You never get kind of like the mean,asshole lesbian character. You never get somebody to pine over likethese girls got to pine over like Damon and Spike.
ROWAN: I feellike that they don't make them villains, It just kind of makes themannoying. Like if they're going to do anything, It's like oh, lookat this annoying lesbian going on about burning her bra or likesomething like that. Just like one of my favorite films of all timedoes this, which is Pride. Where it's just a bit like the lesbiansif they're not like completely perfect lovely people, are just kindof annoying. And so I yeah, I feel like having this– I'm trying tothink of examples that we have of explicitly. I mean, for those whohave watched the Listen to the They/Them episode of this podcast,which is I again truly; whatever as you think about that movie, aniconic title. They slash them for a slasher–
CONNIE: TheSlasher.
ROWAN: For aSlasher movie.
CONNIE: Yeah.
ROWAN: Chef'skiss. That's called Queer Villain Energy on it. Do revenge, which Idon't know if you have watched.
CONNIE: Yeah,I've watched.
ROWAN:Yeah, is kind of like a tempting to get to that area a little bit,but I feel like didn't. For my taste go hard enough intothe–
CONNIE: Yes, Iagree. They didn't go hard enough. Because if they'd really leanedinto her being this like super evil, villainous character, and thenthe two of them being perfect for each other and not into like,because we're best friends way.
ROWAN: We'relike, evil, soulmates, evil revenge getting Queer soulmate sort ofbeen.
CONNIE:Yes. And then, then you have this like, lesbian power couple, thatlike young lesbians can be like, oh my God. Like, I wouldn't beinto this in real life. But it's such a fantasy for me. These kindsof toxic girls who could like have me wrapped around their fingerand be like, mean to me.
ROWAN:Badass vibes.
CONNIE:You know? It's fun. Fantasies like that are fun.
ROWAN:Jennifer's Body arguably has that energy.
CONNIE: Yeah,that's a great point.
ROWAN: Which isthat whole movie is, yes queer villain energy withtongue-in-cheekness to it. But I agree with like, when as soon asyou were like a queer spike, I was like, oh, man, you're right.Like that kind of toxic love interest, like heart throb character,who's allowed to have that kind of nuance and be kind of an assholeabout it.
CONNIE: Yeah.
ROWAN: This ismaking a lot of sense, this is all adding up. I'm on my littlecount. I'm on my graphic calculator just doing some sums and it'sall adding up to me.
CONNIE: Yeah,these are the kinds of things you usually have to go to fanfictionfor, because people just aren't putting it in popularmedia.
ROWAN: That'strue.
CONNIE: Butthis is what we want. We want a toxic, sexy person in there. And ifit's like Connie and Rowan endorse toxic romantic loveinterests.
ROWAN: Please.I think everybody knows this.
CONNIE: Aboutme, my biggest ship is Sauron and Morgoth.
ROWAN:This is very– Yeah. For anyone who knows Connie, it is completelyunsurprising, but also kind of fun because as we mentioned before,Connie is the writer of some very sweet, middle grade.
CONNIE: Yeah.Were mind are full of queer joy.
ROWAN: Yeah.
CONNIE: So evenI–
ROWAN: But youalso; but everyone's gay and so the villains are also gays. Soit's–
CONNIE: Exactly.
ROWAN: It allworks now.
CONNIE: Exactly. We have a character who I wrote veryspecifically as the standing for the fact that I couldn't find inany other media, these kinds of like slightly toxic but also likefun, hot, queer love interest. My cat is screaming in thebackground, my cat is screaming, yeah.
ROWAN: Inagreement. And in case everyone's like, wow, I can't believe thatConnie wrote these toxic love interests such as the; There is alsoa scene in which these girls like fully kiss in a cloud of powderedsugar. If you're wondering how sweet the other end of the spectrumgot, that feels like the highest level of sweetness you can get tobe honest and in a sweet factory.
CONNIE: In asweet factory. But also tobe very clear, my like, toxic; You can't see me but I'm doing likeinverted commas.
ROWAN: Airquote.
CONNIE: Mytoxic love interest; He's all about consent, the like, big momentwith him is that he asks for permission because it's like, I wantyou to have this fun queer character to pine over. But I also wantyou to understand what is actually okay and what is not.
ROWAN: What thelevel of toxic we're talking about here. Just like I want you to beevil with me, but like, I want you to want to be evil with me.Like, I want you to come to the dark side, but like in a way whereyou know what you're getting into, love that.
CONNIE:Absolutely.
ROWAN: I feellike this makes a lot of sense. Do you have any examples of queermedia where you were like, you just; other than I guess, Do Revengeor you've just talked about like, this is what it needed, you justneed to push it a little bit farther. Or if only we had like had aqueerness within this relationship it would have made much moresense.
CONNIE: Shegofrom Kim Possible, which is so embarrassing to say because likeeverybody always was like, she gave my best quick crash, like blabla bla. Has anyone had an original thought in their life? But sheis so prime, she's like very sarcastic, she's got that like femmefatale energy. And if she had been gay, I would have realized along time ago that I was a lesbian.
ROWAN: That'sfair enough. I feel like that's–I made a video on my channel awhile ago that was like, children's characters who should have beengay. And like, as soon as I talked about it, every single commentwas like, Shego better be on this list. Like before they'd evenwatched it, they were like, I can already predict. I know what'sgoing on here, because you're absolutely right. That was such a;already people were crushing.
CONNIE: Yeah.
ROWAN: So itjust kind of made sense. That tension between her and Kim, OhKimmy, Kimmy.
CONNIE: OhKimmy. Well, that's what Shego calls her, she calls her Kimmy. Oh,thought it would be great.
ROWAN: It'lljust make sense.
CONNIE: Yeah,but I have one more, because it's the autumn season.
ROWAN: Okay.
CONNIE: Andeveryone is rewatching Gilmore Girls. Another kind of slightlytoned-down version that would have been perfect was Paris. And Ialways felt when I was watching Gilmore Girls that Paris shouldhave been a lesbian. She has such like power lesbian energy. And ifI could live in the alternate universe where Paris gets to be oneof Laury's love interests, because some of Laury's love interestsare toxic. Anyway.
ROWAN: Yeah.
CONNIE: So Ijust would like to have seen that. I would like to have seen themhave a moment.
ROWAN: Thatmakes total sense. And I think also, I guess like me, I guesssimilar energy is Elle in Legally Blonde and the love interest; thesecondary love interests for her ex, for Warner'sex.
CONNIE:Vivian.
ROWAN: Thatmakes sense to me. Vivian. Yes. I 100% would have gotten on boardwith all of that happening. Just Elle being bisexual in general,chef's kiss.
CONNIE:Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, it would be such an easy one to edit,because they do that thing where they have the kind of the littlenarrative written.
ROWAN: But atthe end, just like–
CONNIE: Youknow what I mean.
ROWAN: Vivianand Elle just got together, don't question it. Theend.
CONNIE: Theywere soulmate.
ROWAN: It justmakes sense. I think most queer girls and honestly, I think evenstraight girls understand or had the experience of a really intensefemale friendship like a really intense, especially when you'relike at school and you see this girl every single day, and you havesleepovers with her and you like, I feel like so many people havethis experience, which then makes so much sense on screen to methat it can go a various different ways. And one of the ways isthat really intense, slightly obsessive toxic like we areeverything to each other style, queer romance, that couldabsolutely veer into the villainous as much as it could veer intothe very sweet couple, who just really like an old married couplefrom the moment that they meet. So I think it's just realistic, youknow.
CONNIE: It is.And also, I don't know how common this is with other lesbians. Butwith those really intense best friend friendships, it's almost likeyou look back at some of them, you're like we were kind oftoxic.
ROWAN: We werelike too intense.
CONNIE: Maybewe were really mean to each other.
ROWAN: I thinkthat's, maybe that's just you. But I appreciate your candid honestyon this podcast, Connie.
CONNIE:Everyone saved this one for my therapist.
ROWAN: But Ido, like I'm convinced. I feel like we have the space forbubblegum, cute sweet cotton candy, queer joy storylines, but alsolet the gays be evil sometimes as well.
CONNIE:Thank you. Glad I could convince you of that.
ROWAN:Let us be the super; Although I will say if Marvel decided to maketheir fucking first big old gay character, a super villain. Thatdoes seem very on-brand and that supervillain probably will be deadby the end, so thanks.
CONNIE: Ohyeah.
ROWAN: Thankyou marvel for that in advance. That feels and Disney as well. Thefirst Disney prince and the princess are, in fact, evil. That seemslike it, that tracks.
CONNIE: Oh, I'mkind of into that. So we've got like, but as long as this evilcharacter ends up with the Disney princess.
ROWAN: Oh, youknow, what? Isn't that basically the plot of Raya and the lastDragon?
CONNIE: Don'teven get me started, ruining the Last Dragon. I was watching thatfilm with my mom. And we're both just looking at each other like,what the hell, like when are they going to kiss?
ROWAN: That'sgay.
CONNIE: That;you know what that is the perfect example of this of like, we havethis really intense female friendship when they were younger. Andthen we have this like character, who's been driven to villainy byher conformity to her society and to her family, and now is comingback for revenge and, and then they kiss.
ROWAN: Italways these characters actually exist. And if they'd be one queerwriter in the room, or if queer people are allowed to actually sayanything, then we would have had this already and we wouldn't bediscussing it in a podcast.
CONNIE: Therewe go.
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ROWAN: Atthis point in the podcast, I just wanted to thank Squarespace forsponsoring us very exciting. If you're looking to build a websitefor yourself or your business, then Squarespace is an all-in-oneplace to do, basically all of it. You can build the site, you canset up an online shop, you can connect with your audience. We useSquarespace to make the Queer Movie Pod website if you've ever hada little peruse at that. But I am particularly proud of my ownwebsite, which was also made on Squarespace. Because I've neverrelaxed the day in my life. I have a ton of projects and socialplatforms, things like that. And so Squarespace not only lets youlink to different pages into your social media but also connectsthem specifically so you can display posts from your socialprofiles on the site. There's also really good analytics andinsights that can help you to grow your brand. So if you need tofigure out, where are people even finding me? Like where are thesesales coming from? 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ROWAN: Well,then we got. I mean, I'm convinced about the second one. So I feellike we can go on to the finale.
CONNIE: Ohyeah.
ROWAN: I don'tknow whether this is the spiciest take, is that why you've left herlast?
CONNIE: It's atake.
ROWAN:Okay.
CONNIE: It's atake. It's something I have taken from my mind.
ROWAN:Excellent. I mean, that's why we came up with this format,honestly, just to have some unhinged vibes, as well as awell-thought-out point.
CONNIE: Thispodcast exists. This podcast was created for thismoment.
ROWAN: Okay.Okay. Give it to me.
CONNIE: Youguys can't see the eyes that I'm making right.
ROWAN: Thecrazy faces that I'm seeing. It's also great because since westarted recording, the sun has gone down. And so Connie is alsojust in the darkness.
CONNIE: Iactually am the, the evil queer-coded character that TV warned youabout.
ROWAN: Yeah, Ididn't want to say it. But essentially, that second take was, Ijust want to see myself on screen from Connie, which I alsorespect.
CONNIE: So thislast one, and it's not just a personal preference. I'm going topreface by saying that I genuinely believe that this would bebetter for all people involved.
ROWAN:Okay.
CONNIE: EdwardCullen should have been played by Kristen Stewart.
ROWAN: I wouldlike to just very quickly ask a clarifying point. Would she alsohave been playing Bella?
CONNIE:No.
ROWAN: Okay.That felt important to us.
CONNIE: That'sa really good question. I'm glad you asked.
ROWAN: I justlike to understand the full scope of the Hot Take, before I get tothe questioning. Okay, so, so explain what you've just brought tothe table.
CONNIE: So,Edward Cullen, I don't know how familiar people are with westerns,but he has a real cowboy energy to him. He is a recluse. He's kindof lived alone. It's always part of his identity, that even thoughhe would quite like to form relationships, he feels the burden ofhis lonesome soul. And that he must be alone because he's a ramblinman.
ROWAN:Yeah.
CONNIE: He isdoomed to this life. This is a very cowboy approach to life. Andit's like a common thing that is addressed within cowboy movies,westerns.
ROWAN: So can Ijust quickly say, so far you've made a very good argument for whyTwilight should have been a Western. I'm waiting for the bit ofthis argument that then brings queers you're into it. So please,please continue. I'm sold already on a totally different Hot Take,but I'm; I'm back in it.
CONNIE: KristenStewart is a fucking cowboy. She is a fucking cowboy. She is not ademure girl. She's not a sweet little girl who needs saving. She'snot the project you love. She is a fucking cowboy. If you've everseen an interview with her where she's like driving her car, andshe's like holding a cigarette, and she's chatting and flirtingwith the person she's talking to, but in a way that gives you asense that she is this distant soul that you cannot really engagewith. She's Edward Cullen. She's Edward Cullen through and through.Her as a human being. She is more Edward Cullen than RobertPattinson will ever be able to understand.
ROWAN: Sookay, here's the thing. I don't disagree with this. And I would goso far as to say that Bella Swan feels a lot of emotions under thesurface and doesn't necessarily fill them on the surface, anoutsider to this town. I don't see a reason why Robert couldn'tplay Bella. I've seen that boy in the behind the scenes of HarryPotter. He notoriously didn't speak to anyone, he just sat in acorner awkwardly. And no one really knows, we're just like, oh, no,I guess Robert's in this movie. And I truly feel like that's BellaSwan energy.
CONNIE: He'sBella Swan.
ROWAN: I thinkhe's Bella Swan. And I think she's Edward Cullen.
CONNIE: Yeah,they got it the wrong way round. Like the fundamental issue withthese films, is that they cast these characters the wrong wayaround.
ROWAN: This isgenius. This is the gender swap of it all. Although if we did gowith it being a queer movie where Bella is played by a girl, whoare we thinking works as an option.
CONNIE:Alongside her.
ROWAN:Alongside.
CONNIE: Nowthis is great, this is what I – I stay up all night thinking about,like who should have been Bella Swan in my superior Christian SueEdward Cullen Universe.
ROWAN: Yeah,I'd be disappointed if you hadn't stayed up all night thinkingabout this. I alternatively will allow you to give me an offer ofwho could play Edward if Robert was playing Bella. I mean,obviously, they could all just be bisexual and they would still bea queer movie. But if we were casting two girls/two boys/ some nonbinary people involved. What are we thinking?
CONNIE: Holyshit. There's so many options. So who is my like gay EdwardCullen.
ROWAN: Who's mygay Edward Cullen.
CONNIE: Who'smy gay cowboy Edward Cullen. I don't know. How old is Edward? He'slike 20.
ROWAN: Edwards,oh, I don't actually know when he– Oh, no. I'm really hoping thathe– I don't know why thinking oh, if he died when he was 18 thatmakes it any better that he's like 300 years old. Like, oh, yeah,it's fine. As long as his body is out of a new bornteen.
CONNIE: It goesback around. It goes back around. It goes back around. Once you hit150 years old. It's okay. Again.
ROWAN: That'sjust vampire law. That's how it works.
CONNIE:Exactly. The older you get And you get the more okay itis.
ROWAN: Thebetter it is. Sure.
CONNIE: Like2000 years old. Absolutely Okay. No one is arguing withthat.
ROWAN: I'mliterally. I'm literally like, what if I just Google cowboy actors?And I'm like, I don't know if that's gonna be a– if I just searchgay cowboy actors. I don't think it's gonna give me what Ineed.
CONNIE: Youknow what I would love. I would love Twilight, but it is– MarkHamill, as Bella Swan.
ROWAN:Yes.
CONNIE: Comeon. You can fill in the blank.
ROWAN: Wait,Harrison Ford?
CONNIE:Yeah.
ROWAN: Oh, no.You're correct. Did you just invent Star Wars? Did you just inventStar Wars?
CONNIE: I thinkI just improved Star Wars.
ROWAN: That's–You know what? You're not wrong. That makes complete sense. There'stoo many of these, too many of these. You know, these young up andcoming actors have sociable charisma. You know what I mean? TomHolland is never gonna be an Edward or a Bella.
CONNIE:No.
ROWAN: The boyhas too much light behind his eyes.
CONNIE: ButZendaya, the guy can be an Edward.
ROWAN: Oh, yes.It's annoying that we need Bella. We need to find agirl.
CONNIE: I findher so hard to cast. I think Bella is hard to cast because everyonereads that book and just imagines themselves on Bella.
ROWAN: That'sfair. Are you playing Bella alongside?
CONNIE: I'mBella Swan, let's do it. I think I would be the worst Bella Swan inthe whole world. Like if you put me in that situation where I met avampire. I would just be like, are you fucking kidding? Bite meright now.
ROWAN: Norestraint. Absolutely zero.
CONNIE: Iwould have joined the Volturi. I would have been like, I want towear one of these sexy velvet outfits.
ROWAN: Oh mygod. I love it. This– I mean, like you. I don't know whether youhad any other points for this take or whether– it was justvibes.
CONNIE: I mean,I feel like the point I wanted to make was that Kristen Stewart isa kind of Edward Cullen.
ROWAN: Is acowboy.
CONNIE: Andshe's a cowboy. I'm not even one of these, like hardcore KristenStewart fan girl lesbians. I think like, yeah, she's cool, she'shot,she's awkward,she's weird. She's fucking cowboy. She's not forus. She's for the road.
ROWAN: This waslike so– a long way round to make that point. Like you could havejust been like, I think Kirsten Stewart should play a cowboy,should be cast as a lead in a western. That would have all theloans. I really respect that you just took this point so hard, allthe way around the house is incredible. Because also yeah, now I'mthinking about it. And I'm like, I would 100% watch your West. Imean, like, I would not watch a Western for basically any otherreason other than it being gay. Let's be real here.
CONNIE: Oh,I've got some news for you.
ROWAN:Okay.
CONNIE: A lotof westerns are extremely queer coded.
ROWAN: In whichcase.
CONNIE: Haveyou heard about Brokeback Mountain?
ROWAN: Have youever heard? I just Google Kristen Stewart cowboy. And there is anincredible image of her with a cowboy hat photoshopped on. I wasreally hoping that I was going to come up with a Kristen Stewartcast in a cowboy movie.
CONNIE: Wasn'tthere a movie where she played like that female serial killer. Thatmurderer?
ROWAN: Yeah, itis called. It's like one. It's the name– Lizzie.
CONNIE:Something gay from mother– Lizzie Borden.
ROWAN: That'sthe one.
CONNIE:Yeah,what happened to that?
ROWAN: Soshe did the villain thing.
CONNIE: She diddo the sexy villain thing.
ROWAN: She did.She did like your second Hot Take. That's the range. The range thatshe has.
CONNIE: Come onKristen, I want to see you in a cowboy movie.
ROWAN: You'vedone vampire. You've done murderer. You've done like a weirdarthouse film. The only thing left is a cowboy. Surely we’re duefor a Renaissance.
CONNIE: I mean,I guess she's giving me cowboy in her day to daylife.
ROWAN: Yeah.And you know that's enough for us. We don't oppress you into makingthose kinds of career decisions. Kristen as we know, you'relistening to this obviously. Longtime listener, first time callerof the show, Kristen Stewart coming to a guest episode soon. I canonly dream.
CONNIE: If shedoes a Western, I too will be coming.
ROWAN: For thebenefit of the general public. I'm shaking my head and ashamed ofthis call.
CONNIE: And I'mraising a bottle.
ROWAN:Raising, raising your glass. I mean that yeah, that's– I thinkyou've– I think this was a clean sweep. This was a ding ding dingfor all three of these Hot Takes. And you– This was very good,because I did send you a list of all of the Hot Takes. And therewere already some on that list that you were into. So you've pulledso many Hot Takes out. You had them so ready to go, which I knewimmediately as soon as I invited you. There would not be a problemwith you having Hot Takes, it was just, which one you were going tochoose. And I think you chose very well.
CONNIE: I know,there were too many, there were so many to choose from. I'm notgonna lie. I actually forgot I was doing this podcast, until Imessaged you earlier being like, I don't think I have amicrophone.
ROWAN: Justtrying to get out of it. And I was like, Good. Nice try. Butunfortunately, we have to record these episodes to give to Julia toedit or it doesn't go out. And that's not anoption.
CONNIE: Yeah, Ijust– I really pulled these out of my Hot Take.
ROWAN: You didvery well.
CONNIE: My HotAss Take. Thank you.
ROWAN:Yeah.
CONNIE: I'm–I'mthrilled.
ROWAN: Thankyou so much.
CONNIE: Do-whatdo I win?
ROWAN: Um,absolutely nothing. Um, you–there is no prize other than just asense of having power over me and that you managed to persuade meof something. And I think that sense of power should beenough for you. That seems like the kind of thing you'd be intoanyway, so thank you very much Connie for joining this nice andchaotic Hot Takes episode, they always are. Except weirdly, Alex's–I feel like Alex's Hot Take episode was very logical. Which isbizarre because Alex is the most chaotic person that I can thinkof. He does the are they gay videos on YouTube.Yeah, no even morechaotic than you, somehow. That is everyone for another episode ofthe Queer Movie Podcast. Please let us know on the socials, whetheryou agreed with these Hot Takes/ if you are a supporter of thePatreon on the Discord. I'd love to hear about it and see if youcan persuade me back again to disagree with these, to disagree thatKristen Stewart is a cowboy. Because I would love to hear the verylogical arguments for and against. If you've enjoyed the episode,then please make sure to follow and subscribe to the podcast, soyou're primed for our next. One of these bits of nonsense on thepodcast app of your choice. And as I said, consider following us onPatreon because we do some cool stuff over there including monthlyqueer movie watch alongs on our Discord. And you can also followthe podcast on Twitter and Instagram for some behind the scenescontent as and when Jazza and I remember to do so.
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ROWAN: Thankyou so much for listening. The Queer Movie Podcast is edited byJulia Schifini. We're also part of multitude productions, which hasa lot more amazing sibling podcasts that you should definitelycheck out. Make sure you follow and subscribe to the podcast, Soyou are primed for our next episode. Thank you so much forlistening, and hopefully you will hear from us verysoon.
Transcriptionist: KristianneBenganio
Editor: KM
